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Guest Ilan

Job Title "Engineer" without PE?

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I know in Texas, a Graduate Engineer working in a Registered engineering firm under the supervision of a PE can have the title "Engineer" (Article 1001.406). What about other states? Do they require PE licensure to be called as Engineers...

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In PA, you aren't considered an enigneer until you have the PE. Until then even though my title is project engineer I can't use my title on anything even business cards.

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In MA they now have a draft policy on this same thing. It might be a bit more lax than TX or PA though. You can still have "PE" after your name if you are registered in the state found on your letterhead or business card.

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Thanks for the replys. I was told that I couldn't have "Power Engineer" title because some states probibit it without a PE license.

MA - Yes

PA - No

TX - Yes

Anybody else from other states?

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Well, I guess MN doesn't really care.

Also, I'm not sure if this is the case all of the time but in California (OSHPD) will freak out if you write a letter and you have either a PE after your name or use the title "engineer."

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I don't want "PE" after my name without becoming one. I have "EIT" next to my name right now and I am happy with it. I am just trying to find out how many states prohibit "Engineer" titles without PE licensure. IMHO it is not fair to call an engineering degree holder anything but an "Engineer".

Can a graduate engineer have the title "Engineer" before becoming a PE?

CA - No?

MA - Yes?

MN - Yes

PA - No

TX - Yes

Thanks kevo for your reply.

Ilan.

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In Florida, No unless you meet one of the exemptions provided for in 471, F.S.

JR

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In California there is an industrial exemption (sec 6747 Prof Eng Act) for any electrical or mechanical engineer working in the power, defense, almost any industry. Otherwise the Board might be a little upset with the thousands of aerospace and high tech workers and companies openly calling non licensed people "engineers" of one type or another, and advertising for more.

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I have seen a lot of crap on that matter. Sound Engineer,Maintenance Engineer,"You Name It" Engineer.I think that is the reason we are not at the same pay level of doctors and blood suckers(aka as lawyers).Most of you will probably not be in the same page with me but our profession is screwed.I would love to see a doctor without a license performing a surgery or a lawyer without the bar exam making an opening argument before a judge.Now do you know how many "engineers" without a license are out there doing "engineering"?Personally I give a damn about the tittle.Show me the money.Call me whatever title you want.

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I read my post and it might look like I am against engineers without license working as engineers and that is not true.We all have to go thru that f%^@#ing process.What I wanted to point out is that the PE license does not have the same value as a Doctor's or a lawyer's.That is not right.Just MHO.

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Thanks benbo and jregieng for your replys. I guess most of the boards see the term "Engineer" synonymous to "Professional Engineer". I am working under the supervision of a PE in TX and I do interact with clients from other states. Is it wrong, when I hand out my business cards with "Power Engineer" title in these states? I do have EIT next to my name.

EB Rocks!

Thanks,

Ilan.

Can a graduate engineer have the title "Engineer" before becoming a PE?

FL - No (unless meets 471, F.S.)

CA - No

MA - Yes?

MN - Yes

PA - No

TX - Yes

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I would guess that since it says EIT, no one is going to mistake you for a PE. I'm in Texas, my official title (according to the company) is Engineer III. My card says Engineer.

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I saw this link in another thread, It answers my question about handing out business cards in other states. I guess I am OK as long as I have TX address in there.

Ethical Behavior in the Cards

Thank you all for your input. :)

Ilan.

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In a couple months you'll be ordering new business cards anyway :party-smiley-048:

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Thanks benbo for your vote of confidence. My new manager and I had differences of opinion on this one. I just want to set the rules right for future entry level engineers in my company.

Three more days to the exam :multiplespotting:

In a couple months you'll be ordering new business cards anyway :party-smiley-048:

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I saw this link in another thread, It answers my question about handing out business cards in other states. I guess I am OK as long as I have TX address in there.

Ethical Behavior in the Cards

Thank you all for your input. :)

Ilan.

Yeah... but I don't think NSPE BER is worth much. The State legislature is where you need to look. Oregon's ORS 672 says:

672.007 Acts constituting practice of engineering, land surveying. 
(1) Within the meaning of ORS 672.002 to 672.325, a person shall be considered practicing or offering to practice engineering who:
(a) By verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way implies that the person is or purports to be a registered professional engineer;
(b) Through the use of some other title implies that the person is an engineer or a registered professional engineer; or
(c)  Purports to be able to perform, or who does perform, any service or work that is defined by ORS 672.005 as the practice of engineering.

I don't think the out-of-state address helps you if your title implies "engineer". But I haven't looked at any OSBEELS court cases which might clarify.

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Here is what the Michigan statute says. Looks like you're safe using "engineer" here, as long as you don't use "professional engineer."

339.2014 Prohibited conduct; penalties.

Sec. 2014.

A person is subject to the penalties set forth in article 6 who commits 1 of the following:

(a) Uses the term “architect”, “professional engineer”, “land surveyor”, “professional surveyor”, or a similar term in connection with the person's name unless the person is licensed in the appropriate practice under this article.

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Well, for what it's worth, the Northern Mariana Islands prohibits a person from using the job title "engineer" unless they are a PE, with a few exceptions - one being if you work for the state government, and then another for "industrial exemptions" or such (I assume, because I have seen a lot of guys around working at hotels and the phone company with "engineer" after their name).

I actually received a warning letter/notice of violation from the licensing board here once, because my name showed up in my agency's newsletter followed by my title - "environmental engineer." I wrote back to the Board and cited the section of their law which exempted me from the rules, and signed the letter "[Dleg], Environmental Engineer". I never heard back from them. (Now I'm PE so II have no worries :D )

But once again, people shouldn't get too hung up on the PE issue. It really only matters in certain industries. While it is common and expected in the construction business, it is less common and virtually unheard of in a lot of other engineering industries. I seriously doubt that there were many "PEs" involved in the design of the airplanes you travel on, or the computer you are typing on now, for examples.

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Thanks, I will stay out of OR & NSPE then. :P I just saw another thread discussing about NSPE. Nobody seems to care about it.

Anyway, back to the original question,

My company is a registered engineering firm in TX and it is stated in the card. In reality, my company is offering the service, not me. I tell everyone that the work will be performed under the supervision of a PE licensed in that state.

I am beginning to think it is safer to use EIT as the title instead of Power Engineer. :dunno:

Others: Thanks for your input.

Yeah... but I don't think NSPE BER is worth much. The State legislature is where you need to look. Oregon's ORS 672 says:

672.007 Acts constituting practice of engineering, land surveying. 
(1) Within the meaning of ORS 672.002 to 672.325, a person shall be considered practicing or offering to practice engineering who:
(a) By verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way implies that the person is or purports to be a registered professional engineer;
(b) Through the use of some other title implies that the person is an engineer or a registered professional engineer; or
(c)  Purports to be able to perform, or who does perform, any service or work that is defined by ORS 672.005 as the practice of engineering.

I don't think the out-of-state address helps you if your title implies "engineer". But I haven't looked at any OSBEELS court cases which might clarify.

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I am beginning to think it is safer to use EIT as the title instead of Power Engineer. :dunno:

If I may offer a humble suggestion/opinion:

For nearly all of us, attaining professional registration marks a pinnacle achievement as it regards licensure. It is a badge of honor and though the letter of the law may not prohibit you from using the term 'engineer' or in your case 'power engineer' on your business card, I think it is ALWAYS best to err on the side of caution. I am not suggesting that you have portrayed yourself in any way other than honestly, but when it comes to perceptions, some may take it the wrong way.

For me, I was always very clear when it came to my title or how I portrayed myself (in my case as a regulator). Trust is critical in the relationships that I form, so to me this was very important especially when it came time to qualifying the things I could independently accomplish and those things I needed to rely upon my supervisor. In the end, what may seem as small change to you may seem like a jab to someone else.

That is my :2cents:

JR

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Ilan-

You work for a company right? The title you have is the title that they gave you, right? They are the ones who print up these cards, right? I assume they have been in business a while and are aware of the rules. You could check with your board, but let me point out this-

My uncle was an engineer for Lockheed in Houston for thirty years. No PE, no problem. THere are hundreds of engineers down at NASA, very very few PEs, and I'm sure none of them are at risk of prosecution. And a quick search of monster anywhere in Texas will yield hundred of ads for engineers, none of which call for a PE. Either the board is completely incompetent in pursing these criminals, or this is not a crime.

I wouldn't worry about it.

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I've always wondered about this topic myself. I've always been told that you should not use "engineer" unless you are registered/licensed. I have passed the EIT and I have the E.I. after my name only. My certificate says "engineer intern" so i do not use any other title or variation. It seems that the laws have exemptions, etc. and can be difficult to comprehend. I have friends who are from the ME, AE, EE and think it's okay to use "engineer". Some did not even pass the EIT and they say to me "you can call yourself what you want, but I'm an Engineer!" Maybe it is different under certain companies, gov't agencies, industries, etc... but I will stick with E.I. for now. My grandfather worked his way up to become a Chemical Engineer without license and maybe not even an engr degree... but that was back a long time ago when years of experience counted for a lot.

Someone can read this and tell me what you think for the State of Tennessee.

62-2-102. Practice and persons exempt from registration. —

(a) Except as provided in subsections (B) and (d), nothing in this section shall

be construed as requiring registration for the purpose of practicing architecture,

engineering or landscape architecture by a person; provided, that the

person does not use the appellation ‘‘architect,’’ ‘‘engineer’’ or ‘‘landscape

architect,’’ an appellation which compounds, modifies or qualifies the words

‘‘architecture,’’ ‘‘engineering’’ or ‘‘landscape architecture,’’ or which gives or is

designed to give the impression that the person using same is an architect,

engineer or landscape architect.

62-2-105. Penalties — Reporting offenses.

(2) A violation of this subsection is a Class B misdemeanor.

(3) Each day’s violation of this subsection is a separate offense.

© A person is construed to practice (or offer to practice) engineering,

architecture or landscape architecture who, by verbal claim, sign, advertisement,

letterhead, card, or in any other way, represents such person to be an

architect, engineer or landscape architect, with or without qualifying adjective,

or through the use of some other title implies that the person is an architect,

engineer or landscape architect.

(d) It is the duty of the members of the board to report any violations of this

chapter to the proper authorities.

Let me know what you get out of this from the link here...

http://www.state.tn.us/commerce/boards/ae/...ects05E_000.pdf

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Either the board is completely incompetent in pursing these criminals, or this is not a crime.

I'm thinking it's usually the former but incompetent might be a bit harsh...

In Oregon:

672.991 Penalties. (1) Violation of any provision of ORS 672.045 is a Class A misdemeanor.
(2) Notwithstanding ORS 131.105 to 131.155, prosecution for violation of ORS 672.045 may be commenced within two years after discovery of the offense, but in no case shall the period of limitation otherwise applicable be extended by more than 10 years.

and

Category/Prison Term-ORS 161.615/Maximum Fine ORS 161.635
Class A Misdemeanor/1 year/$6,250

I don't think many State boards have a lot (any?) time to start their own reviews. They depend on complaints and let's be honest... not many people are going to complain.

I, too, wouldn't worry about it. But I would do what I think the law prescribes.

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Well, it is a pretty big scandal that the board is igrnoring, because huge, and I mean huge companies like Boeing, Microsoft, etc, and govenrmental agencies like NASA are flouting the state boards. And very openly. THere is a difference between calling yourself an XXX engineer, and practicing engineering or offering engineering services or calling yourself a professional engineer. And as I said, many states have industrial exemptions for electrical and mechanial engineers. California is one. And it looks like the Texas board has exceptions as well.

If I worked for NASA and they hired me as a "Systems Engineer" I think I would be inclined to just accept my title. I don't think I would assume my legal judgement susperceded the judgement of NASA attorneys and refuse to accept the title they gave me.

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I don't know how NASA in Texas is, but I do know this. If the work is done by the Fed gov or their contractors on Federal land (like the site I am currently at in TN), the State board has no jurisdiction.

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